Membership question

[Mike Weins]

Actually I don't consider any of you guests. This is your house, I'm just the guard, janitor, cook, and contractor I've always cursed more than a little since high school, usually though I refrain from doing so on BT and definitely at work ;)

[Catdancer]

Well, actually we ARE guests. If this was OUR house, and you were our employee (guard, janitor c ok, etc. as you describe yourself) we could tell you that we were offended by your use of GTFO -- which really doesn't have any other meaning than the obvious-- and tell you that it's inapropriate for someone to direct that to one of us, even generically,

And you would, if not apologize, at least go about making a simple correction in the terms of service -- terms YOU impose by the way --and not keep this thread going by daily reminders to use about your power over us -- the power to remove us from "our" house. This post is not likely to see the light of day because not only do you have the power to edit it, you also have the power to throw me out of "my" house, which you have done in the past.

So no, Mike, as much as we are glad you and other volunteers have committed a huge chunk of time to keeping brainstorm alive, we are also quite aware that it is indeed YOUR house, that we are guests here, that if we don't play by YOUR rules, no matter that they may be offensive, or offensively worded, we will be quite unceremoniously shown the door.

[SuzE-Q]

Well, actually we ARE guests. If this was OUR house, and you were our employee (guard, janitor c ok, etc. as you describe yourself) we could tell you that we were offended by your use of GTFO -- which really doesn't have any other meaning than the obvious-- and tell you that it's inapropriate for someone to direct that to one of us, even generically,

And you would, if not apologize, at least go about making a simple correction in the terms of service -- terms YOU impose by the way --and not keep this thread going by daily reminders to use about your power over us -- the power to remove us from "our" house. This post is not likely to see the light of day because not only do you have the power to edit it, you also have the power to throw me out of "my" house, which you have done in the past.

So no, Mike, as much as we are glad you and other volunteers have committed a huge chunk of time to keeping brainstorm alive, we are also quite aware that it is indeed YOUR house, that we are guests here, that if we don't play by YOUR rules, no matter that they may be offensive, or offensively worded, we will be quite unceremoniously shown the door.

Mike, and it's apparently not just written "rules" we're to follow according to you, but now you advise us that we are to somehow discern and ensure that we abide by some unwritten and unknown "spirit" of BT as well that you will arbitrarily decide what may or may not be included within. And asking someone to tell us a bit about them so we can understand why they're suddenly flooding an MS forum with music posts and confusing, nonsensical posts apparently isn't within this "spirit", and we're to intuitively know this somehow? And we're being threatened with suspension or being banned if we do it?!?

If this type of posting (asking for identifying information) is continued there will be corrective actions taken, ranging from a formal warning, to a suspension, and if it persists, a ban.

Oh, but a command to "GTFO" by Admin if we don't like it is apparently fine and within this "spirit" here. That makes perfect sense.

An acronym can have many meanings. While GTFO typically is used with the offending "f word" it doesn't always imply said word. Either way no offense was intended. I will not apologize for the use of an acronym or the occasional swear word.

No, I can't think of any other full phrase than the one we all think of for that initialism (it's not actually an acronym since the initials don't create a new word), despite agate's best effort above to substitute a nicer word for the one we all understood the full phrase to include. Are we allowed to tell members to "GTFO" too then?

Hahaha Mike you suck!

Can WE tell people they suck too, THAT is within this "spirit" here that you write about and demand of us?

No, Mike, it's not feeling like "our" house at all. No wonder Gary left.

Edited to add: My own 2 cents are that it was a class act how forum members responded to a suddenly very disruptive new poster. I admire their efforts and attempts to gently guide and quell the disturbance to the forum. I love our forum and its members!

[Mike Weins]

Hmmm had I any idea people would be this upset about 4 simple letters I probably wouldn't have used them. Oddly enough even though it wasn't directed at anyone a few have taken it quite personally. I do apologize for upsetting a few folks with those 4 little letters. I will state again that I'm not going to refrain from swearing on these forums completely, it's against my nature to not swear at all. So if swearing gets you upset I'll apologize ahead of time because it's not my intention to upset you.

I thought that most of you have been here long enough to understand the spirit of BT. Apparently I'm wrong on that. Basically BT is a safe haven (lol I can imagine the flack I'll get for that already ) for people. As I mentioned earlier this site can be used completely anonymously and asking for personally identifying information can be very off putting to new members. I will admit that I jumped the gun stating that further questions of that nature would result in corrective action, I'm sorry for that. I should have said that continued asking of the member in question could be considered harassment.

The spirit of BT can be summed up as a caring, easy going place for people to discuss almost anything (that doesn't violate the TOS) with people in similar situations. BT is a support group first and foremost. In the past it was an excellent resource collection, sadly that's been squandered away. I'm expecting to take some flack on my definition of the spirit of BT, so be it. My skin is quite thick and my temper is slow to rise. In fact I will state right here in this post that should anyone feel the need to bitch (technically not a swear word) at me to go ahead and do so. Just do it in this post or via pm's. The mods and David will sit on the sidelines so to speak.

In regards to the TOS, I didn't impose them, they are the same generic rules set forth by every single vanilla vBulletin site, with some differences set forth by JL so long ago. I've got a new set typed out somewhere that was going to be implemented with the next update. These rules would be better tailored to BT and not so generic or heavy handed.

I still say this is your (members) house. You're all here more often than I am. I listen and am willing to make changes (probably can't do them all, it depends on what they would be), yet hardly anyone has stepped up and suggested any. We (admins/mods) are not kicking anyone out (except obvious spammers and those that violate the TOS in a manner that warrants a ban), people are leaving on their own accord for their own reasons (in my opinion ... silly reasons, but ones I can understand to a degree). While some members think they have the right to tell other members what to do, they do not. It's happened before and it appeared to be happening again.

People have read way too much into those 4 simple letters mentioned earlier. It was supposed to convey the fact that if you're being an ass (technically not a swear word) you're going to be removed.

I could have handled this situation differently. Well live and learn as they say.

The thing I am sorry for the most isn't anything that I've said, it's the fear some members have about speaking out against something the admin/mod team has said or done on the forums. Now speaking out against a members private messages, warning, suspension, or banning is against the TOS, calling us out for other things (like my use of 4 letters) isn't. I had hoped that we had demonstrated over the last half dozen years or so that we've become a lot more lenient. Sure there are warnings that have been given out, but some people make a huge deal about those because in the warning it's mentioned that the next offense could lead to a more serious action.

[Mike Weins]

I forgot to address one more point that is being misunderstood. The new videos being posted aren't using up any of BT's bandwidth. They are using up Youtubes bandwidth. Yes there is a little extra time added for each video posted, but not enough to cause any lag unless you're on a dial-up or low speed dsl. The only extra information being downloaded by your computer is the link to the video and the image you see for the video, it's a small amount of data. The actual video doesn't load until you hit play, then you are streaming it directly from Youtube.

I could put the word Youtube in the censor (which I had almost completely emptied) list but it would block all Youtube videos. I can also completely disable the posting of videos, but I don't see a need to do so. Ignoring a member ignores all of there posts and even those with links to videos.

If you are experiencing significantly slower load times for threads that have these videos linked, please send me a pm with some further details so I may try to figure out why, because they really shouldn't be slowing anyone down that isn't on dial-up or a slow dsl connection.

[agate]

Mike, thanks for explaining about bandwidth.

I was trying to make the point that when it comes to posting music videos, if you're still new to the MS board (or returning after a long absence), it's probably best to post them sparingly. It was a question of quantity--especially since the frequent posting of music videos had been an issue only recently (February) on the MS board, when another new/returning member was perhaps trying too hard to lighten up the place with music videos.

My feeling is that most of the regular members on the MS board don't have a problem with anyone posting music videos. A couple have problems getting them to work on uncooperative computers but I believe most people are glad that members have a chance to share music with others. nuthatch has very thoughtfully set up a special thread for that purpose.


I was just trying to point out that, particularly if you're not already known on the board, a little goes a long way, and why not proceed with caution? And if you've been posting in a hostile tone often, maybe you ought to be even more careful...

As you say, we can't tell other people how to post, and that's good. I believe that when I asked someone to post some introductory information, I made it clear that that was entirely optional.



About GTFO: Well, you wanted to get your readers' attention, and it was an important warning you were issuing ("be respectful or gtfo"). But I think SuzE-Q has made some important points.

[SuzE-Q]

I only used the term "bandwidth" as a colloquialism for "space", I didn't mean it literally. Agate explained it well.

Thanks for your reply. I only hope Gary returns.

[Earth Mother 2 Angels]

What Is Respect?

((((((Mike)))))) ~

It’s fair to say that the MS forum is the most active forum on BT. The second most active forum would likely be “the flatfish forum,” where no discussion occurs, but posts are made on a routine basis. Far behind in third, I’m guessing, is Child Neurology, which is down to a skeleton crew now.

The kerfuffle, which started all of this, occurred on the MS forum. A new member joined the MS forum, where long-term, well established MS members post daily, and began what I felt was an insult campaign against them. If we are all being asked to “show respect or GTFO,” then that rule applies to newcomers as well as old timers.

RESPECT:

Is it showing respect to interrupt a long-standing thread discussing a horrible side effect to an MS drug with irrelevant videos and cryptic banter?

Is it showing respect to call a long-standing tradition of the Chit Chat thread a “gross misnomer,” then refer with innuendo to mind games, clubs, and mobs?

Is it showing respect to mock the “Thanks” button?

Is it showing respect to tell the MS Forum Members: “This place is beyond hope”?

Is it showing respect to diagnose existing MS Forum members as “projecting,” and being humorless from the new member's perch at the top?

I’m not an MS Forum member per se, maybe a “guest member,” but I follow their journeys and read their posts. I pray for them. I admire every single MS Forum member, for their undaunting courage, their concern for each other, their knowledge and experience, and their humor. And I was offended on their behalf by the comments being made about and to them by the new member.

GETTING TO KNOW NEW MEMBERS:

It’s only natural to want to learn more about a new member, so we can get to know them. I usually invite new members to share more with us, and tell them I look forward to getting to know them. We’re not invading their privacy. We are reaching out our hands in friendship and welcoming them to our home. It’s the way people make friends.

I’ve also belonged to several other forums in my cyber life, where new members joined, posing as having the same condition as that being discussed on the forum. It’s happened on BT as well. So, there is some desire for affirmation, that a new member is genuine and sincere, on the part of existing members. I think that’s reasonable and understandable.

To join a forum and then say, I don’t want to talk about the condition under discussion in this forum, is rather contradictory. While we do have social connections here, BT is not a social network in the strictest sense. That’s why we have to label our posts “OT,” when they are “off topic.”

THE SPIRIT OF BT AND IGNORING MEMBERS:

We’ve lost Gary to this situation, who is going through a really rough patch and needs his support network here on the MS Forum. Is that the “spirit” of BT? To allow a new member to be disrespectful to the existing members, such that it drives existing members away?

And the solution to all of this is the Ignore Feature?

If we all choose to ignore a new member, then how are we nourishing the BT environment? How are we helping or bonding with the new member? How are we showing respect?

We all have gratitude and respect for you, Dan and David for providing us with BT and for your efforts in keeping us viable. It may be our home, but you are the landlords.

If a stranger entered my home, whether I am renting or the owner, and began denigrating me, my decorating, my furniture, my art work, my cooking, etc., that stranger would be shown the door. I wouldn’t move out, so that the stranger could move in and rearrange everything to her/his satisfaction.

What constitutes respect? Is it earned, or can it be demanded?

Perhaps we should discuss that, so that we all have a better understanding of the rule “show respect or GTFO.”

Love & Light,

Rose

[SuzE-Q]

Wow, Rose *tears in eyes*

Thank you for understanding our predicament and for speaking out to protect our special little corner of BT.

[agate]

Rose, you've done something I was too lazy to do but strongly felt should be done: selecting some examples of the troublesome posts.

Since the admins and the mods don't seem to read through every thread here at BT, they may pay attention mainly to those posts that are called to their attention.

All well and good, but it doesn't give the whole picture. The person in question here has been clever enough to slip under the radar in his/her posts but if you look at where those posts are and how often they occur, you get a better idea of why many at the MS board have been feeling harassed.

Yes, we pretty much have to deal with it until we can either come to terms with this person or persuade him/her to leave. Banning is extreme and creates hard feelings and hostility that can linger on for years.

From reviewing the TOS I have the impression that the whole practice of banning may have been abandoned?



I think we at the BT message board have learned not to allow ourselves to be scared off permanently by the occasional troublesome newcomer. We've learned to carry on--and that ignoring such a person is often the fastest way to discourage more disruptive posts.

It's possible that we've been visited by someone who drinks too much and dropped by to vent some hostility. There's no way of knowing unless that person reveals more. In the meantime we can wonder if that person is really someone already known to us. I hope it isn't but if it is, we'll cross that bridge.

[stillstANNding]

Rose,

A very big, Thank You! I am impressed. You got it right.

ANN

[Virginia]

Rose, thank you so much for your post. You said everything so well. I think much thought went into your post. I feel you are part of us on our MS forum.

[Mike Weins]

Sorry Rose I'm only going to comment on one point for now. I had a long day at work and need to get to bed early for a very early morning. I'm going to try to clean up a couple of threads in the MS forum by moving and deleting posts.

And the solution to all of this is the Ignore Feature?

Short answer ... yup. If you see someone posting things you don't agree with, or don't think fit the forums, report it. If as was determined in this case that the posts didn't violate the TOS (a couple did and were addressed) then it's up to the members who don't like the posts to ignore the user. Therefore eliminating them from seeing the posts. Unfortunately that isn't an available option for guests. So we (admins/mods) have to find a way to balance the freedom we want all of you to have to post pretty much anything that you want, with the spirit/main point of BT.

I can't comment on the Gary situation other than to say I am truly sorry to see him go.