Who are you without your MS? Loss of identity essay that touched a nerve in me.

[Howie]

This is a great thread. I would give a man's view, but I'm so tired, and have tried to sleep, but couldn't, so I'm drinking coffee, and staying up and watching TV. I'll post tomorrow. Night ladies!

[Sunshine]

Maybe living with a hoarder is like living with an alcoholic? I wonder if some of the principles of Al Anon used for the spouse of alcoholics can apply to married to a hoarder?

A good hurricane can cure hoarding. Or a tornado :}

[Cat Dancer]

BBS, our first house burned down (not his fault..a gas water heater pilot light went out; a spark ignited the accumulated gas). I thought that would take care of it. 10 years later and another house, and we were stuffed to the gills. That house flooded out...twice...(not his fault) and I thought that would take care of it. We moved here and it was good for the first 10 years: I had a 3 car garage built (in addition to the 2 car garage that attaches to the house), and the house has a full basement. I had one part of the basement where my elevator shaft opened out, and had the washer, dryer, a table, and other stuff to do laundry, which remained relatively hoard-free.

While I was relatively well, I kept the main house relatively hoard free. An occasional stack of magazines would pile up, and I'd take them downstairs. The hallway would get full of stuff and I'd sort through it, hang up the no-longer worn clothes, toss out the obvious trash. In other words, while I was more able, I beat back the hoards, for the most part.

Then I got sick. In just the four years, and with me in and out of the hospital, and nursing home, and bed-bound....he filled up most all available space. I have a hall between the bedroom and bath that is clear. The area right around one side and the foot of my bed is clear (and it's clear where the stand lift is parked). My bathroom is clear. I can move down the hall to the entrance to the living room, where I have this desk with my laptop. I can move through half of my study -- the other half is full of his stuff. I can move through half of my dollhouse workroom..the rest is full. I have one path in the dining room, leading from the kitchen, to the freezer. Sometimes this path gets full of stuff, so I have to plow through it to get to the freezer. The kitchen floor is open..except for one corner...but the kitchen table is full of stuff. The kitchen island occasionally gets full of stuff, but when it does, I move that stuff to the table. Basically, I have about 1/3 of the living space available to me. I can no longer do the laundry -- the laundry room is full of stuff. He does the laundry --I don't know how. I just know that it gets brought up for me to hang/fold, once a week or so. The rest of the house is full of stuff.

Just today I yelled at him because I can't get out the front door -- my only exit to the house -- because the path to the doorway is now full of stuff. Someone came to the door today and I was unable to answer it, because I can't get there (it's OK..I think it was Jehovah's Witnesses.. :) ) So I'll have to nag about this tomorrow, to get it clear enough so I can get out the door in an emergency.

It's tough living this way. But he's my primary care-giver. I love this place....even if I can't use but a third of it. And unless we pool our resources, we don't have enough $$ to establish two households, or for me to move into a nursing home full time unless we sell the house. So we're both stuck with each other "til death do us part'. Oh well. I've put up with it for 50 years....a few more are nothing...

[Sunshine]

That sounds pretty tough. Does he recognize he has a problem? Hoarding is a type of anxiety disorder, no?

Anyway, you have had much to deal with, Fire, flood, MS, and this hoarding.

[Virginia]

Cat, this is a tough one. I think I would be tempted to get him out of the house somehow and have someone come in and start throwing away. Would he even notice if at least 1/2 of it got gone? I doubt it. He would fill that space up again so fast he wouldn't have time to realize it.

[agate]

Your story sounds like an illustration of the saying that while the cat's away, the mice play. Or is there somebody's law that says that stuff expands to fill the available space?*

Maybe you and he need to have a discussion, and he needs to agree to clear the stuff out even if he ends up paying to put it in storage. And given a deadline--a date after which you'll feel free to hire someone to clear it out, using your judgment about what to discard. I can almost guarantee that he won't like that idea, and it might prompt him to meet the deadline, which should be some time in the next week or so, with no excuses or postponements.

After all, you live there and have special needs. A lot of stuff that is in your way isn't one of those needs.

*It's a variant of Parkinson's Law:

• Your stuff accumulates to fill the size of your home.

[Sunshine]

My understanding Of hoarding is that it’s not a behavior disorder. It is an anxiety problem. The thought of giving away a belonging, or a scrap of paper triggers severe anxiety. Keeping it stops that anxiety. Until the next time. The consequence of losing a marriage is painful, but not as painful as the anxiety. So the person does not change except in the short term, without treatment.

Likely Cognitive Behavioral Therapy can help a lot.

[Lazarus]

My understanding Of hoarding is that it’s not a behavior disorder. It is an anxiety problem. The thought of giving away a belonging, or a scrap of paper triggers severe anxiety. Keeping it stops that anxiety. Until the next time. The consequence of losing a marriage is painful, but not as painful as the anxiety. So the person does not change except in the short term, without treatment.

Likely Cognitive Behavioral Therapy can help a lot.

This is perfect.

[Cat Dancer]

Yeah, it's an anxiety thing. Massive anxiety thing. There have been times when I've had folks come in and clean out some of the stuff while he's been off camping...and when he's come home, he's had a massive panic attack because his stuff has been moved. Just this last month when he was away for four days, my maid came in --- and we didn't toss anything but empty envelopes, sheets of paper with nothing on them, those pesky inserts from magazines that fall out when you look at them, that sort of thing. And pilled up his of magazines and articles he prints off the internet..put them into a neat stack. Left the stack in the general area where it was, spilling over, now in a neat stack. And he was nearly hysterical.

He's 76. Ailing (he has a form of leukemia). Stubborn German. Doesn't believe in psychology/psychiatry/counseling. So while I fully realize that would help tremendously, it ain't gonna happen. And yes, BBS has it right --- throwing away those scraps of paper triggered severe anxiety. He didn't believe us when I assured him that we did not throw away so much as a scrap of paper that had any printing or writing on it that wasn't an ad. Didn't matter...we threw it away and he wasn't ready to do that. (Of course he's never ready).

Oh well. But the GOOD news...maybe you will understand, now, why I sometimes get cranky. :) It's not YOU, it's my cluttered life!

[ssusan]

I’m nobody, who are you?

[Cat Dancer]

I’m nobody, who are you?

Hi, there!! I remember you!! Glad to see you stop by!

[Sunshine]

It sounds stressful. Would he participate in marriage counseling with you? For some men, that’s a way to ease into cognitive behavioral therapy. In a marital session, the psychologstcsn introduce the paradigm. It often intrigues the patient, because they can see the logic of the CBT work, no need to delve into childhood etc.

If not, then Try this workbook:Only registered and activated users can see links., Click Here To Register...

It looks promising. He can try it on his own, or at least read it. It might spark an interest. Or you can read it and translate it to him as a way of enticing him to read it?

There are also good workbooks on Panic Disorder. This one by David Barlow is excellent
He originated the CBT for panic disorders.

Only registered and activated users can see links., Click Here To Register...

It’s not too late for TC. It’s not like he is dying tomorrow. Some people rapidly improve with CBT. Sure, it’s helpful to have a psychologist as a guide, but the books are darn good for those who won’t go.

[Virginia]

This helps me to understand my former friend's brother. (The guy I went with for 18 1/2 years) His older brother is a medical Doctor, then my friend is an attorney, their sister has a PHD - and then there is the youngest. As my friend use to say David is a "Ner-do-well". The nicest person one could ever hope to meet. I liked him a lot. He is a great photographer, guitar player and singer. He and wife had two children and he adored them, as they did him.

Anyway, one time my friend told me David's wife was so depressed he had to go over and take over the bills and pay them. She was put on anti-depressants. At that time I was fairly new in the relationship and did not understand that David had a problem. He is a hoarder. When the kids got through high school and oldest was in college she moved herself out into an apartment. On her own she made more money than he did. She had great job with Federal Government. After she left, my friend stopped taking me to their house. All along it had been her keeping it just half way presentable. She later told me that she had a dumpster outside the house which she would throw his things in to get rid of them later and when she would leave he would go in the dumpster and get half or more back out.

So....she divorced him and has remarried and moved out of town. As far as I know she is happy, though they are still friends and stay in contact at family functions. I suppose it is partly due to the kids. As I said, he is one of the nicest persons one could meet.
Now I understand her situation a little better. Also, he would not keep the house up as far as work on it was concerned. He still has won out from what I hear from the Sister. He sold some land for over a million dollars that he inherited and had a house in the country built that has a three car garage. So maybe it will take him some time to fill up the garage before he starts in the house.

[ssusan]

Hi CAt Dancer
I’ve been around some; most recently posting on Ocrevus threads.

[stillstANNding]

I’m nobody, who are you?

I'm nobody, too!
Then there's a pair of us!
Don't tell! they'd banish us you know!

Thanks for the Dickinson, ssusan. ;-)