lol, we are narcissistic and histrionic

[SuzE-Q]

No wonder there may be spats here.

But enough about me, let's talk about you. So, what do you think about me?

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US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health


Appl Neuropsychol Adult. 2015 May 21:1-7. [Epub ahead of print]

A Preliminary Investigation of Abnormal Personality Traits in MS Using the MCMI-III.

Incerti CC1, Argento O, Pisani V, Mannu R, Magistrale G, Battista GD, Caltagirone C, Nocentini U.

Abstract

Neuropsychiatric abnormalities are frequently reported in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS). Previous studies have investigated the neurotic aspects of psychopathology, and the importance of the personality structure underlying neurotic symptoms has only recently been reconsidered. The aim of our study was to investigate the frequency and type of personality profiles in MS using the Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory-III (MCMI-III).

We evaluated 77 nondemented patients with MS using physical disability scales and self-report questionnaires focused on mood, fatigue, and personality.

In our cohort study, we found a personality scale score greater than 85 in 62.3% of enrolled participants.

In particular, high scores on the Histrionic and Narcissistic scales emerged, respectively, in 20.8% and 15.6% of the sample. The presence of moderate abnormal elevation scores in MCMI personality scales in MS does not seem to be influenced by age, the Expanded Disability Status Scale score, disease course, or disease duration. Our research study focused on the importance of identifying personality maladaptation in patients with MS.

[Frog42]

It would be interesting to see what a person scored before their diagnosis, for a comparison. I wonder if it's because we often need to look out for ourselves.

[SuzE-Q]

It would be interesting to see what a person scored before their diagnosis, for a comparison. I wonder if it's because we often need to look out for ourselves.

I would also guess that after an arduous pre-diagnosis period, where many are dismissed or labelled as depressed, hysterical, malingering, etc., the validation of the diagnosis that, YES, something was, in fact, wrong, that we may appear more demanding and assertive and vigilant of our health care needs in the future, given that backdrop of being ignored or dismissed previously and pre-dx.

Yes, after that traumatic experience, we may become narcissistic and histrionic in demanding proper care.

A pity the study didn't delve into that, I'd bet THAT aspect would be enormously informative of how we've been treated in the past and its consequence in how we approach our healthcare post-diagnosis.

[SalpalSally]

I agree Suz and Vic.

[agate]

I don't know if we need to concern ourselves too much about these results. Something that has appeared in a scientific-looking source isn't necessarily good science.


PubMed is a very comprehensive listing of research papers as they come out but if a paper hasn't been peer-reviewed, it's apt to be taken much less seriously than one that has had peer review.

This AAAS list shows what scientific journals do peer review of their articles before they publish them:

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Many of the journals in the PubMed listings aren't peer-reviewed.

I don't know how much value self-report questionnaires have but I suspect they're not very scientifically valid just because they can't be objective.

SuzE-Q, I hope this doesn't discourage you from posting whatever you want! It's helpful to know that these researchers have been interested in looking into personality traits of persons with MS. Wonder how they determined that their 77 participants were "nondemented"?

[SuzE-Q]

I don't know if we need to concern ourselves too much about these results. Something that has appeared in a scientific-looking source isn't necessarily good science.


PubMed is a very comprehensive listing of research papers as they come out but if a paper hasn't been peer-reviewed, it's apt to be taken much less seriously than one that has had peer review.

This AAAS list shows what scientific journals do peer review of their articles before they publish them:

Only registered and activated users can see links., Click Here To Register...

Many of the journals in the PubMed listings aren't peer-reviewed.

I don't know how much value self-report questionnaires have but I suspect they're not very scientifically valid just because they can't be objective.

SuzE-Q, I hope this doesn't discourage you from posting whatever you want! It's helpful to know that these researchers have been interested in looking into personality traits of persons with MS. Wonder how they determined that their 77 participants were "nondemented"?

I'm not discouraged at all, Joan!

The MCMI-III appears to be a multi-axial, well respected psychometric that is widely considered reliable and a valid psychological test. Questionnaire-type tests are generally not suspect simply by way of obtaining information by questionnaire alone; the MMPI comes to mind as a questionnaire format that is a standardized test commonly used to assess personality traits and psychopathology, the results widely accepted at face value. The Beck Depression Inventory is another one that comes to mind as obtaining valuable, reliable and helpful psychological profiles.

This test, while shorter, is linked to DSM diagnoses with five scales used to help detect careless, confused or random responses on the test. It appears to be accepted by the psychology profession and considered to have adequate theoretical anchoring, and the organization of the scales has been confirmed by factor analysis and correlations done with third-party tests to further confirm the validity of the scales. Internal consistency and alpha coefficients for the test, as well as test-retest reliability, are all considered good. In effect, the questionnaire is considered a reliable measure of 24 personality disorders and clinical syndromes found in the DSM, the official Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

I imagine those diagnosed with dementia via their clinical records were excluded from testing because dementia would confound the results.

I also don't know how important peer review is when dealing with standardized testing and not a clinical trial, where no analysis or interpretation of questionnaire results is required since the testing vehicle itself provides the psychological measurement.

Of course, I can't say that you could accurately extrapolate these results to the MS population at large either...

[Howie]

Dare shore wuz a lotta big ol' words, but I thank I got it.

[agate]

Thank you for the reply, SuzE-Q.

I guess I've been down on psychology since noticing that many people who later turn out to have MS are often given a psychiatric diagnosis on the basis of one psychologist's or psychiatrist's personal observation and maybe a few of those tests. These people wait years sometimes before discovering that they have MS, and in those years they might have been having treatment or at least learning to deal with a neurological disorder instead of a psychiatric one.

The two do overlap, of course. I'm just a little too suspicious of psychology, I guess.

[SalpalSally]

Me too, a little, Joan. Whether we have MS or not, we must be nuts!!!

However, I do appreciate all of the searches into the MS monster.

[SuzE-Q]

Thank you for the reply, SuzE-Q.

I guess I've been down on psychology since noticing that many people who later turn out to have MS are often given a psychiatric diagnosis on the basis of one psychologist's or psychiatrist's personal observation and maybe a few of those tests. These people wait years sometimes before discovering that they have MS, and in those years they might have been having treatment or at least learning to deal with a neurological disorder instead of a psychiatric one.

The two do overlap, of course. I'm just a little too suspicious of psychology, I guess.

I'm not so sure any psych tests are even done before psych labels are given to what turns out to be PwMS, Joan. If a neuro-test comes out negative, it seems as though a psych label, or stress, fatigue, depression is suggested, even by a pcp, in the hopes that the patient will not come back and will magically improve.

To me, the problem isn't with the psych tests, the problem is that doctors are too quick to dismiss and mislabel patients, especially women, when basic neuro-tests don't indicate a problem, despite it being known that neuro tests don't often show something awry in the early stages of MS, and dealing with strange physical symptoms creates emotional distress in itself as a side effect.

Doctors don't validate the patients' symptoms, they too quickly assume it is a primary psychological issue with no basis for making that assumption.

[renee]

Too bad the entertainment value of this kind of stuff is much higher than its' probable scientific value.
I'd bet those conclusions could be reached studying patients with other chronic illnesses...
or the general population. Snort.

A friend of mine got the 'have you considered you're depressed etc.?' from Johns Hopkins after she
went looking for answers to a lingering and debilitating case of Lyme.
10 years to get help.
Nasty.

[agate]

Psychological explanations are an all too easy way to blame the victim. Blaming the victim is handy because the victim can be ushered out of the doctor's office without any talk about return visits or followup. The luckier victims who are given this treatment are sent away with a referral to a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Seems women are particularly apt to be misclassified as mental cases (or menopausal or even premenopausal).

[SalpalSally]

Psychological explanations are an all too easy way to blame the victim. Blaming the victim is handy because the victim can be ushered out of the doctor's office without any talk about return visits or followup. The luckier victims who are given this treatment are sent away with a referral to a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Seems women are particularly apt to be misclassified as mental cases (or menopausal or even premenopausal).

GRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......LOL!

[SuzE-Q]

GRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......LOL!

Grrrrr, indeed! I agree with everything written above.

I wonder if the same narcissistic and histrionic tendencies would be found in others also dealing with hard to diagnose and difficult to treat debilitating conditions. It seems to me to be healthy coping mechanisms when one is searching desperately for relief when health is declining, having to deal with doctors who have often ignored, minimized or dismissed serious concerns in the past.

I'd say histrionics and a focus on self seem rather appropriate responses!

[Lazarus]

Grrrrr, indeed! I agree with everything written above.

I wonder if the same narcissistic and histrionic tendencies would be found in others also dealing with hard to diagnose and difficult to treat debilitating conditions. It seems to me to be healthy coping mechanisms when one is searching desperately for relief when health is declining, having to deal with doctors who have often ignored, minimized or dismissed serious concerns in the past.

I'd say histrionics and a focus on self seem rather appropriate responses!

When I developed and taught a course about women and literature I used a novella written in the 1800s? Titled "The Yellow Wallpaper" by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. The woman in that novella is a victim of totally incorrect medical treatment based on these similar prejudices about women. (The main character's husband is a doctor). It is a brilliant portrayal of the problem.