OT July Chit Chat

[Howie]

Waaaaait a minute, back to lobsters. Why do you feel sympathetic about the lobster's death, but not cows or chickens, or fish? Is it the fate of the lobster that gets to you, the boiling water?

[Virginia]

Howie, I think that is a lot of it. However, if I let myself think about cows and chickens and hogs it somewhat bothers me. But since I do not see this taking place I do not think of it.

When I was very young about 7 I guess we were living in Monroe, N.C. My Dad got a pig which we raised to become a hog. He had a pen with a house (best I can recall) and a place on one side of the pen to roll in water and mud. I can't remember what we named that hog, but my oldest brother use to go get on his back and try to ride him.

It came time to kill the hog and do all the stuff you do with them. My Father, without me watching, went with his rifle to the pen to kill the hog. He raised the rifle and couldn't shoot. He did this several times and finally had to get someone to come and kill the hog. That was the end of our hog raising days - it was a one and done type deal. However, I could not eat any of the pork that came from that hog. We also raised chickens back then. I just didn't watch them being killed and I don't remember having a problem eating the chickens. They probably told me that the ones I was eating were not the ones we had raised.

[Howie]

My sister raises cattle, black Angus, which are beef cattle. She even gives some names. But when the truck pulls up to carry them to their fate, she helps to load them in, gets her check, and never gives it a thought about where the next stop will be.

But with a lobster, you are closer to the coming fate by picking it out of the other lobsters, which makes you feel closer to the coming fate, so you get someone else to pick one out.

See, I do understand.

[Cat Dancer]

My friend raises beef cattle. I specifically told him, "Tom, I don't want to know anything about the cow. I don't want the name of it, whether or gentle or mean, tough, kind, etc. Just give me the beef, cleaned, cut, wrapped in neat white butcher paper."

[Sunshine]

I had a backyard farm when my kids were growing up: a dozen hens that gave us yummy eggs, 3 goats and two pot bellied pigs. We didn't eat any of them. All pets. Due to asthma I couldn't have any indoors pets, and I wanted the kids to have the joy of loving critters.

The hens were pets and dumber than a rock. Oh the stories I could tell! We didn't eat them, but I would've had no qualms. But they were entertaining. I could watch them foraging all day long and not be bored. They were good layers.

The goats weee almost as dumb as the hens. But they were amusing pets. Did you know that the goats pupils of their eyes is rectangular in shape! It made them look like aliens.

But the pigs were smarter than a dog. No way I could eat a pig after knowing that.

[nuthatch]

It's the boiling water issue for me. There are quick ways to die, but being boiled alive isn't fast and just seems mean and unnecessary. I would think that all creatures have nerves, so can feel pain.

I also am a meat eater, but I will not eat lamb or veal. Can't get past the fact that these are baby animals and in the case of veal . . . well I don't agree with how they're treated for the short time they are alive.
I used to love fishing (after all fishermen are in my ancestory) but now it seems like such an inhumane practice, particularly sports fishing. I look at it from the fish's point of view. How would you like it if you took a bite of a sandwich, a sharp object pierced your jaw, then you were dragged by your bleeding mouth hither and tither, then finally under water, where you couldn't breathe, gasping for dear life. Then you're stepped on or squeezed, have the sharp object ripped from your jaw, then finally let go. Oh yeah, you live in fear it might happen again the next time you eat anything! Does that sound like torture or what? Sport . . .

My aunt had a pair of chickens for years. They provided her with a constant supply of eggs, but my aunt couldn't bring herself to eat her own chicken's eggs! She gave them to the neighbors instead! I guess we both have too much empathy for other creatures!

[stillstANNding]

I understand all of these feelings, both sides. I have been a vegetarian for years until I was hungry for meat. I started having meat occasionally.

Another time, I stopped eating fish after feeling thst I was being guided around the coral reefs in the Carribean by a dark purple fish. I was sure it knew me.

Now I am an omnivore eating mostly vegetables as Peter is a vegetarian.

I recently read, We Are All Completely Beside Ourselves by Karen Joy Fowler. It's a Pen/Faulner winner and was a Man Booker Prize finalist. An odd book. It will make you think about these and other issues.

Virginia & Howie, I burned my R pinkie cooking today.
ANN

[Howie]

We are meant to eat animals. Most animals live by eating other animals. We are no different, we have the teeth for tearing flesh. But the big advantage is that we are at the top of the food chain. We have a brain that is so far above the other animals.

And it's that big brain that allows us to choose the animals we eat. Cats and dogs are animals, but have the intellect that allows them to see us as their caretakers, and they want to be with us, and maybe even love you as we understand the concept. And we love them.

But back to the lobster, it has the most primitive of brains. It doesn't have the elaborate brains of other animals. It's main nerve runs down the tail, and allows it to propel itself.

And there are similar nerves that allow it to use it's legs to move. But there are no nerves to allow it to feel any parts of it's body. It serves no purpose. Even the shark has a very primitive nervous system and brain.

It's the same for fish, and clams and shrimp, and...I'm getting hungry.

No animals can think as we do. Chimps are smart, but they use their brains for survival. Even the apes can be food if a big cat can get to them.

It's important not to project human feeling or human thought process onto animals. We have such an advanced brain, that we even have souls. But that is another idea for another day.

Since we are on the subject of animals, my sister is sending me a picture of herself with her new pet possum. Yes possum. This will be her second one. She will raise it until it's grown, then turn it loose on her farm. In both cases, the mama got killed, and she grabs the last one alive, and raises it.

And you thought "I" was weird!

[nuthatch]

Getting real tired of hot weather. Sunday we hit 111, but it's cooled down a bit to just 93 now. It was so hot Sunday, all the birds hanging out at my fountain had their beaks wide open, even the hummingbirds! I've never seen that before.
It was very smokey here too. Fires to the northeast and the south of us but we're in no danger.
We noticed a new fire broke out today, east of us. Big plume of smoke came up but it's dispersed now. Nothing but grassland out that way, so hopefully it's under control.
It's going to be a long, hot, dry summer.

[nuthatch]

*calvin1Yep, think you're weird. Jury's still out about the advanced brain, though!

[Virginia]

Howie, you are so smart - you know everything!

Ann, did you put your precious little pinkie in ice water and wrap it in a paper towel wet with Witch hazel? I feel like a veteran at this now. My finger still has a small white blister and it is numb, but I saved it.

Nuthatch, I just hope your house remains out of danger and you and DH along with it.

[Pegakafarmgirl]

we name our cattle,, everybody deserves a name,, we can't go around calling them "hey you" or "sirloin",, very undignified.. we have one ,we are going to butcher, we named her Millie.. I won't get to close to her,,its a name

I am doing all right,, no worries

[stillstANNding]

Hi Peg <waving>.

Nuthatch, build a moat?

ANN

[agate]

we name our cattle,, everybody deserves a name,, we can't go around calling them "hey you" or "sirloin",, very undignified.. we have one ,we are going to butcher, we named her Millie.. I won't get to close to her,,its a name

I am doing all right,, no worries

LOL!

Well, you COULD call them "sirloin"--or maybe "Tbone." A boy in my high school was always called Tbone (a nickname)--why not a cow's name as well?

Yet another trip down memory lane here--does anybody remember full-page ads in magazines that were comic strips about Elsie the Borden cow? And her husband Elmer and I think there were a couple of kids (calves?)?

[Catdancer]

I think we underestimate the brain power of animals, their ability to think, feel, reason, have empathy for..... It used to be that we separated humans from animal by suggesting that only humans used tools....then we discovered apes, other primates, other mammals, even some birds use them too. Then we said only humans can communicate with speech....until a gorilla learned and used sign language, and went on to teach it to another young ape. We said parrots only mimicked sound....until we realized they actually put together sentences that were self initiated.

And so on. Yes humans have evolved to be omnivores -- to eat other flesh, as well as plants and plant parts. Being a vegetarian or a vegan is difficult -- you have to pay attention to your diet to be sure to include enough of the essential elements for your survival.

As for what animals we eat and which we don't -- it has little to do with the animal and everything to do with custom, or religion, or culture, or an intricate combination of those. Jews and Muslims don't eat pork. We don't eat mutton much in the U.S., but it's eaten in other countries. We tend to eat lamb only in the spring -- tied to the Christian notion of "Jesus, Lamb of God", tied to the fact that spring is when lambs are born. Yet farm raised lamb is available all year, now, and often on Norwegian menues (and elsewhere)). The people in the highlands of the Philippines still eat dogs: 100 years ago it was common on the dinner table everywhere in the country, and in China. We don't eat horsemeat...but other countries do. Here we turn it into dog food

Think about all of that. Then think about plants...we're discovering that plants find ways to get their seeds to fall near other compatible plants, so as to benefit each other. There is some evidence that plants experience pain; and respond when talked to. I don't believe either of the last are true, by the way..

So what are we to do, if we are to survive? Realize that we, and every other living thing, are interconnected. That we, and every other living being depend on each other for our mutual survival, our very existence. Treat everything living as holy, however you might define that word. Treat all living things with care and compassion, even if it does mean killing them to survive. Do it swiftly, suddenly, cleanly, so the animal sufferers as little as possible. While it's alive treat it well, not because you want to fatten it for slaughter, but because you understand it, too, is a living thing.

Unless of course it is a mosquito. Or tick. Or flea. In which case, squash it flat.